Monash University Wushu Club

Largo

Date: 1/31/2008 4:00 am · Subject: Re: Do You Believe In A God/s?

Holy cow! This thread reads like Richard Dawkins with a bit of Terry Partchett too.

I like that.

Let's skip evolutionary theory, theology, morality and ethics, flying spaghetti monster to... Oh, yes.

Replying to Scotty, yeah, i think of religion is a good thing. Sure.

Arguments of existence aside, it gives folk reason to consider each other from a perspective *other than their own*. It's the option that makes this important.

Look into the night sky. Are you really that insignificant in this cold indifferent universe? Do you really want to believe that?

Or would it be less upsetting to believe in a world that was made for you, where your decisions actually mean something and lead somewhere?

I have two Friends who chatted about this the other week. You can find their discussion at:

http://cellsinculture.blogspot.com/2007/10/evolution-among-friends.html

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Jim

Date: 1/31/2008 10:16 am · Subject: Re: Do You Believe In A God/s?

Ah hah, "Friends"... I see what you did there.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

"Bull-shit, mister Han Man!"

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henri

Date: 2/ 7/2008 1:13 am · Subject: Re: Do You Believe In A God/s?

well after reading a hell lot of these posts, well i wanted to believe that there is a god, but theres just no proof of it. That does not mean that i don't believe in the existance of a god. The thing with this subject is that at this point, nobody can prove that there is or there isnt a god. I mean if you were asked to prove the existance of gods or vice versa, i don't see where we could start. Religion is a start i suppose but i don't consider that as a real solid proof.

It has to be noted that the 'chinese whispers' most likely to happen as what Jim said. Thats one of the reason that i cant fully believe in christianity. As for the creation of the universe by a god, well that's one way a religion would start. I mean in the beginning of human civilasation, there might be some people who tought "maybe there is a god that created us" and then a miracle or a coincidence happened that they havent understood and theres a start to a religion. this is the way it might happen but may not be the case. So to me, religion is not a reliable source of proof.

Then again, thinking in terms of christianity, there is the devil that is believed to tempt us humans. As i was reading one of those pamphlets by the jenova's witness or one of those branch of christianity, they mentioned that the devils are cunning and clever, etc. That got me thingking that maybe there is some force that convinced us that there is no god, no afterlife, etc. Maybe god created this concept that there can possibly no way be a god; maybe to test the faith of us humans, who knows.

All these points that i stated is, well just ideas, no solid proof either. I guess we hav to find out if there is a god or not at the end of our lifes. I dont think we would find the answer in our lifetime anyway. But nevertheless, its interesting to hear other people's opinions. Keep em comin guys ^^ n c ya in trainin

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Soap

Date: 3/13/2008 11:19 pm · Subject: Re: Do You Believe In A God/s?

I'm going to leave the comments on scientific method alone, because it's unnecessary to respond comprehensively to that discussion. But if I'm allowed, I'll respond to other things more personally than before.

One of the pillars of being religious is that you have faith.

You're right about labels. Being "labeled" as a catholic is not enough for you to know anything about this, particularly since by your own assertion, you haven't practiced it. As a person self-proclaimed to follow evidential reason, you spend a lot of time saying things about God are limiting, yet still vague. You don't know what God is but you want to say God exists or not?

I do not know how to say what God encompasses. Language has its own limits in everyday use, and I am not naive enough to pretend I can say with any authority what you seem to spend so many words against. And even then, who here finds it difficult and unreasonable that I would argue for something I can't put into words? This addresses the question of what it is we can see but don't believe - part of the human experience is the wordless meaning that emerges from between the lines but can't be expressed directly. If we actually want to know better, all we can do is learn/read more and hope the wordless meaning grows. If you'll forgive my previous poorly worded metaphor, I might say this in paramathematical terms; it is one thing to perceive something that exists in 4, 5 or more-dimensions, like an Escher print, and another entirely to know what it's like, when the world we live in only has 3. All you can do is approach it into infinity, like y=1/x to zero. If you can't understand why that might be the case with God (or possibly, as before, take exception to my analogy because of your mathematics course) your frustrations are pointless because your concept of God would remain narrow. We can discuss apples because we know apples, but imagine if we didn't - to start by saying that an apple is here or not is meaningless.

I'm often disillusioned by organised religions (Christian, Jewish, Muslim or any other monotheism) that are responsible for telling people God is something definitive. Discussions like this are helpful to me too, so thankyou. I think you'd enjoy Peter Vardy's "Thinkers Guide to God"- it's a good introduction to human (not only religious) interpretation. Not all faith is blind, rather, I'm always searching, though I might never figure it out - but religion, including its shortcomings, is an excellent place to start.

As for religion being the source of bad behaviour, I rather think it needs a closer look than that, to agree with Scott. Isn't human determination at the root of it? Determination born of religion is still determination, and there are other ways to become fanatic. Besides, most everyday Christians are not "determined" to convert or punish unsuspecting non-believers. If you are fixed on any one thing, your behaviour, good or bad, is the product. Stalkers/murderers for example, are determined and act on motives that don't have to be religious - being scorned by a person can be enough to propel their actions.

That so many terrible things, and on such a large scale, have been done in the name of religion I will agree, it is a sorry thing indeed.

P.S: for a more literal answer to seeing not being believing -
Impossible Objects.

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Big I

Date: 3/14/2008 12:55 am · Subject: Re: Do You Believe In A God/s?

I'm finally back to the forums, for better or worse.

Ian: Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.

Scott: Disagree - it takes a personally unyielding belief structure for good people to do bad things. You cannot blame religion for it, much in the same way that you can't blame a sword for killing people. It's when people choose to believe so much in something, wanting to force that opinion on other people, and then using violence to enforce that belief, that's when good people start doing bad things.

I have to admit, I didn't really think too much about the quote I was pasting at the end of my last post and I think I would have to agree with Scott now.

Billy: I like to base my beliefs on wat can be proven, if u can prove that theres a dude up there, by all means go and show me.

I think the problem with this is that you will never change because by definition (correct me if I'm wrong on this), god is outside the realms of science. This is also assuming the you meant that you would believe it when scientifically proven.

Scott: But do you reckon religion is a good or a bad thing?

I think on an individual level, religion can be very helpful to people. It can bring a sense of belonging and a purpose in life. However, there have been some people (much less now than in the past) that have used religion as an excuse to do terrible things.

Soap: You don't know what God is but you want to say God exists or not?

I would like to know the answer of whether or not god/s exist/s, however I have only ever been stating my opinion that I think it highly unlikely that there is/are a god/s. I'm sorry if I have been coming across that way, I'll be more careful from now on.

I think that the general conception of god as mentioned here has been the Abrahamic one with attributes such as omnipotence and omniscience, and the creation of the universe.

I also think that we are arguing the same thing from different sides of the fence (now, at least, not some of the earlier comments I made). That everyone can have their own personal beliefs with respect to god and that there is no way of determining (currently and probably ever) whether god does or does not exist. I will be sure to check out Peter Vardy's "Thinkers Guide to God"

I also apologize if I did offend anyone with what I have been writing, it was never my intention.

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